Talk:Reviewing Game Lore Discussion
There are a few ways you could look at this. The first, the easiest and perhaps the hardest to accomplish smoothly: wiping the entire slate clean and starting over from scratch. The idea is, of course, that by doing so you can build a strong foundation and build up while doing everyone's best to form it without any obvious plot holes or contradictions. Perhaps even re-write the entire thing, have some creative minds come together. However, this is difficult because essentially lore wise you'd be building an entirely different game. That's where it'd be hard; who'd want to do that? This leads to a second way of doing things:
Wipe everything and start over using pieces from the old game world to form a more whole idea. In this way, you have a skeleton to work from but you also have freedom to change things that need to be changed and build it up so that the holes are obliterated. This, I think, would be a preferred method considering that there'd be a minimum of disruption and it would still leave the hollow world being hollow. HOWEVER, the chance to make hollow a complete world is also inherent here. Name some continents, make a world map and a world name. I have always found it curious in the number of loopholes left open -- might be a good time to smooth those over.
A third way, and a minimum of change would be to simply patch things. In my mind this would be the most frustrating way considering that there'd be a lot more restrictions to how you could work things. It'd take a lot of tweaking and an abundance of discussion. . .but is perhaps doable given enough time and patience.
Now on to who would be doing the working. We have many creative minds, and quite a few who have the wherewithal to buckle down and crank out ideas without feeling discouraged or offended if other minds look over it and are critical about it. Which might lend credence to an open/closed system whether on a forum or in the wiki: the idea being that a few areas are open to all to freely add input and ideas, and a closed area where admin/privately selected individuals (and it is VERY important that these individuals remain private. I'm sure that there'd be a lot of whining and complaining over who was added if it were to become publicly known >< ) would discuss the public info and come up with ideas of their own.
But on a basic level, I urge the powers that be -- no matter what is decided upon -- to start with the foundation and work up, not any other way around. You'll need a creation story, any gods, beginning of the world etc. *REASONS* for why things are the way they are and a CLEAR basis for people to ground rp in. I'm not a huge fan of restrictions but they are assuredly necessary for everyone to come to rp with the right mindset, and in a way that is linked to eachother. Having one person from fantasymindset#102 and another from fantasyminset#25 come to hollow to rp leads to headaches and complaints from both sides.
So, again, I'm down to wiping the slate clean and starting over while using the current hollow lore as a skeleton and example to base the new lore off of.
Deilakrion
I am in agreement with Deila's second option. There are somethings in Hollow history that just can't be changed, and shouldn't be. I've only played this game for a year, but I too have found a lot of holes in the 'history'. Revamping it using major parts of past rp's and other canon is, in my opinion, the best way to fill the gaps. I hope the powers that be take notice here and at least consider these options. ~Arysel
- ~~ Keter 03:43, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
I did not see the original conversation regarding the Hollow canon. What I do know is that I much prefer the preservation of past precedents. Things that have happened, Have Happened, changing that now makes little sense to me. I believe the Historical events could be more easily presented for people to learn, perhaps a synopsis which covers all relevant information. Kaizer's History, while it doesn't go back into a creation story, does go back quite a ways. The entire mythos of Hollow is based upon these stories, from the sealing of the Nameless One's Blade by Tiaren to the other Knights of Eurydel and the various battles involving Sven, Hind, Lore and their fathers, as well as Elazul, Khasad, and Arrecation, to the creation of the Vampire race.
These events, like it or not, are a real and true part of Hollow's History. There is plenty of room to expand upon, and possibly clarify any discrepancies, but to act as if the last 8 years of RP didn't happen would be, to me, a travesty. So far as naming the continents, etc, the only one named is Eurydel, that and the other two have all but been destroyed by the Nameless One, the only one left of the four is the one on which Hollow takes place.
I think that specifically pointing out the holes in the canon would be the most positive way to move forward, once those discrepancies are detailed, the solutions for fixing them can be addressed.
- Hvitr 15:57, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Woah...woah. Sorry, but I cannot see how anyone could consider this, at all. Since Hollow began, people have been RPing things about the history, making the history. Is it right or fair to them to just wipe all that out? If someone did that to any of my RP, you can bet that I would be offended, and angry. And that's just one angle: some of us have created our characters based on the history, and destroying that would in turn destroy our character's backgrounds, story lines, and just generally ruin everything. So, I emphatically disapprove of this idea in every way, shape, and form.
- Ginger 11:09, 25 October 2008 (Hollowtime)
I think building from the baseline is a good idea. I don't believe that much would just be erased by solidifying the Lore, rather than just letting it run wild. Set a standard so that others aren't running blind-->Good idea. Giving blind people scissors-->Not so good idea. Guidance is usually what people need, 101% of the time. The rest of the time, we can live by the guidance we've already found.
- Kaizer 12:31, 26 October 2008 (Hollowtime)
If there are plot holes, I say fix them and move on. The story wasn't even originally Hollow's history when I first started writing it, so there were definitely some rough areas that were conformed (forced) to fit Hollow's universe. Another thing that plagues the story is any sense of direction; I didn't plan anything out, I just wrote whatever sounded good, and any tie-in to the previous writing was diluted at best. I was like 15 when I wrote it, so it's certainly not a work of art, but like it or not, it's been the basis of all of Hollow's primary RP. I think it would be a bad idea to toss all of the major plot points aside and invalidate a lot of RP. I think the story should certainly be rewritten, and I think that it could be done so in such a way that it preserves and enhances the original story, and introduces new plot points that can serve as hooks for its continued writing and development. Whoever decides to do this (if rewriting with the intent to preserve the story is the decision you guys come to), you can feel free to contact me via email (kaizer777@gmail.com) or aim if I'm on (Kaizer777), and I'll do my best to assist you with any questions you may have. Bear in mind, I've forgotton most of the story, so I may not be of much use, but my offer still stands.
- --Demont 06:19, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Point out the plot holes to me, I'll re-write the stories with the help of Kaizer. Starting over from scratch would be a bad idea in my opinion. Hollow would stop being Hollow.
_____
Tenebrae:
Why not include some rp that has changed the canon and occurred more recently than say ..what... 6 years ago? Thea and all rp'd the Enchantment thing hard, for example, the dragon guys are slogging away right now, and the EC rp has been running for --three years-- and involved a huge pile of players of all kinds. Yes, the Eldritch Cabal IS an RP, the clan exists because of the rp and will likely end when the rp ends. We've all done some amazing stuff, but until now I have been a bit loath to push harder for us to d anything "really important" to affect the rest of Hollow. And this is not for want of trying -- I did, a while back, and I did not feel any of our rp was valued on that level because it did not involve the distant past of Hollow Lore all that much, and we had little success in getting official support for it to go global.
Fortunately, things are a-changing, and the EC rp might get a chance to allow all those people involved in it over the years to have actually affected Hollow in some permanent way. I think WE players who are writing our butts off now ARE Hollow Lore, as well as whatever was done in the past, and it's really great to see this fact getting some discussion-time.
As to what approach to take... I think a wipe would annoy a lot of players, even if it seems the most expedient way. I think we need to assess where Hollow is at NOW and allow those players who put in loads of time, effort and good sense into organising rp for piles of others to have a bit of say. Let the distant past BE the distant past, put it in a History Book, with tidy endings, and let the people who are logging in and rp'ing and creating rp every day, right now, create a NEW CANON of current histories.
In the current canon, last I looked: "Tenebrae took over the Hanging Corpse". That's it, for the EC's canon entry. For three years of continual, complex RP with its own massive forum dedicated to hundreds upon hundreds of pages from the members of the clan and associates alone, let alone those not recorded for our clan RP canon. One sentence. It's a great story that's finally getting a chance (now it's ending) to get a little global action. Which is very, very appreciated, but has also been very frustrating over time. I wish we could have done more, worked more closely with admin, been able to twine it in with past Lore in small ways, gotten even more people involved in all the many and various aspects of it.
I am NOT whining here, but merely pointing out by my own example that player-created RP can and does have a huge shelf-life and can and does extend over years without pooting out in a blaze of bleh when folks get tired of fighting. Ours is just ONE of many such rp's that don't necessarily dredge up the same old Lore over and over, follow the same old plotline over and over. Sometimes I feel like Hollow can't ever get past "the glory days", which were great, yah, no dissing that one bit. But we (players now) have done things just as great. And could do more, if we got the help from admin AND each other to form and re-form the world we play in, in a long-term and sustainable way. Having staff capable of discussing this with players is wonderful. Lets do more of it?
I'd rather see this than more admin-created insta-rp/rewritten lore being thrown at players who are then told to be in it whether they like it or not. No offense, there's been some really good ideas there, I wish I'd been able to contribute. But RP is for the players to create... isn't it? I'd like to see a pile more admin support for player-rp that creates and affects things at canon-level, over a wider rage of players and levels of play that help more people get involved. AND a lot more player-support for admin RP, discussion as to how WE can help that rp along in some way and how it can tie in with OUR rp, rather than running over the top of it like it doesn't matter. That committee thing mentioned up there is likely going to be a great beginning for this process.
In a nutshell: Let's write up the NEW canon, while we're fixing up the old. Let's be progressive and look at how we can create new legends pertinent to current RP, while not forgetting what came before. You know, so we are playing our own RP, not just playing out remnants of somebody else's. There's a delicate balance to be achieved here-- honouring the past, and honouring the present both.
This will be either really good or a complete disaster. I am rooting for, and will do everything I can to support, the former. Who's gonna be the Lore-Keeper, then? ;)
- runs away*
- --Demont 16:42, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
I said I'd willingly re-write the History/Lore whatever. When that's done, yes, I'll work on adding what's been done recently. Should be fun.
Have something you want added into the new version? Hmail me it and I'll work on it after I fix the current history by Kaizer.
- Odette
- If the Timeline is part of the canon and what happened, I think we need better times for them all. Some races don't have when they were created or came to be and all, so some people can virtually pick any age they want.
- Also, where is it? Is it the Timeline, is it the Kaizer's Hollow History Keter just put up, or is it the both of them?
- -- Keter 03:44, 27 October 2008 (UTC) - It was Kaizer's Hollow History that I posted. The Timeline is a sysop protected page, so admin have to edit that one. The Hollow Lore page has much of the important RP historical information. I think the idea of having a defined way to submit things and have them supplemented to the history would be a good thing. Significant new RP has a place in History as well as old.