Talk:Necromancer

I'm really interested in how the embargo on rp'ing soul magic affects the current definition of Necromancer on Hollow, as written here.

Soul theft and transference, inflicting damage to and corruption of the soul, all this used to be a prime source of necromancy rp and opened it up a much wider variety of play than simply "summoning a corpse" which gets old very quickly. Working with the ghosts of the ancient dead, the recent dead, setting a ghost in place or banishing ghosts, all of this was great fun to rp and its loss had severely limited the range of rp available to necromancers.

I understand that soul magic opened up an avenue of abuse in that players who'd been killed by death duel were using it as a means to bring perma-dead characters back to life, but it doesn't make sense to me that an entire class of players ought to be punished for a sake of a few transgressors of basic rules.

It makes far more sense to deal with such rule breakers case by case, rather than limiting an entire class to prevent them

I would agree that should necromancers have such powers as over ghosts and souls stealing that it ought to be a rule that they CANNOT revive a dead character who had been killed in a death duel. Most players would respect such a rule, and the few who don't -- as I suggested above -- could be dealt with as rulebreakers on a case by case basis.

- Jolie

Sort of ironic how all the topics I was talking about with my friends today sort of have come up in one way or another....

Well, I'm not 100% sure of the site's definition of a Necromancy, but my particular definition would be the manipulation of dead matter. Same as a Hydromancer has the ability to manipulate water and things like that. In this case, the soul would not be able to be manipulated by the necromancer as it is not technically considered matter or particularly dead. Unless of course, in the world of Hollow, the soul remains in the body after death.

The ability to communicate with/see the dead would fall under a different category, that of a medium, and possibly a Lich (my definition being the equivalent of an undead/other-world summoner). While I don't think a blanket ban on this is necessary, it makes more sense, in my opinion, that they be kept separate. This is, of course, just my opinion, and I could be wrong on just about all of the points as the site functions. Or maybe I missed the point entirely.

((I will be back in about an hour if this gets responded to... need to go home))

~ Tirona ~

Here is the definition, according to the Hollow Wiki, of a Necromancer:

Necromancer

Necromancers are mages who specialize in the animation and manipulation of things no longer living. Common practices of the average necromancer include conjuring various skeletal parts (or in some cases, entire skeletons) for use to their advantage in a fight. It is thought that some necromancers have harnessed the ability to utilize soul magics and to also resurrect people from the dead, but these powers are only mastered by the most experienced necromancers after years of practice. Despite common belief, they can actually be of any alignment, though they will almost exclusively be neutral or evil.

~Mahri

The very term "necromancer" literally means "Divining via the dead" -- talking to the dead. Any kind of death magic, icluding binding ancient souls to weapons, binding ghosts to items or places, banishing ghosts, etc ought to be available to the Necromancer, so long as it does not break common rules of play regarding revival of killed charas, the onus of which is upon --every player--- and ought to be punished individually in the case of transgression.

Ruling out communication with the dead really doesn't make sense, as it's a part of the very definition of what a necromancer is and does. And severely limits the scope of rp. Just as, according to this embargo, technically all undead players ought to be slobbering idiots that shamble around aimlessly unless directed by a necro-mage. Boring as hell, and the class suffers badly for it.

- Jolie

Thank you Mahri.

Well, I was thinking the most literal definition of "Death" and "Manipulator." So the most literal definition is what I said, the manipulation of dead matter. Not trying to start an argument on that point... sorry if it seems like I am.

Yes, the complete lack of soul magic is a bit of a stretch and difficult to make interesting. At the same time there should be different levels of a necromancer's skills just as there are different levels of any other mancer's skills. Just a Necromancer's ability are diverse enough to be split. Like a Medium would probably be considered different than a Necromancer, yes?

I think similar to a Hydromancer there are different levels of skill? An average Hydro can manipulate just water, while an average necro can manipulate an obvious body. The next level up can raise up less revealed of both (water in plants, bodies buried under the ground). Things of that sort, I guess? Am I making sense or has my brain died before I start writing my paper?

~ Tirona ~

I can see where you are coming from, but with a moratorium on the soul thing which conflicts with the wiki definition of what a necromancer can do, the rping of such becomes rather stale after a while. If a Hydromancer was unable to, say, create an elemental monster of the element, all the water-blasting magic gets kinda dull. So would reanimating dead bodies without the tie to a soul to control it.

Also, that's not to say that someone who comes on and decides to be a necromancer should automatically be imbued with the power to call spirits/ghosts or use soul magic to bind or control. A character who's been around a long time with that class, on the other hand, would be understandable. And yes, here I am going to say that Jolie, as a necromancer for howmanyyearsnow!?..should be allowed those specialized and advanced skills. I am confident, knowing what I do about her, she wouldn't abuse it.

Then we get into "what about characters who were DD'd and are dead? What if they want to be resurrected?" I'd say that's fine, so long as it was agreed to before hand by both parties that that would be an option should they like to return as that character, whoever it was that died. Of course, that can be abused as well and should be dealt with, as previously stated, on a one on one basis. Or, if being brought back as an undead thing is part of a larger plot in all.

This is my two-cents worth..

~Mahri

I've been having discussions with Tiphareth (soon, Rheven as well) on having Necros represented in the mage guild in a more official capacity, with such levels as suggested being put forward as part of the rp of that inclusion.

There's several skill levels proposed, with special sub-classes possibly available only through Guild membership, which ought to encourage people to join.

It's still at idea-phase, but I'm working hard to make it a comprehensive thing. It's be wonderful if we could lift the embargo on soul magic, perhaps just for Necros in particular instances? It'd be much less likely for abuse to occur via guild membership, too. Only a loose suggestion, at this point. Some discussion with admin here would be helpful, of course.

- Jolie

My two cents! I think necromancers ability to summon should be, like all classes, gained with time. In my opinion, a neophyte necromancer could summon say... zombies, or whatever, and using their own mind control them. They cannot summon one hundred sentient zombies and have them run amuck. As the necromancer grows more powerful, be it through independant study or mage guild (which I love, btw) participation, they should eventually be able to summon sentient zombies (I use zombies as a generic term for summoned undead) which are imbued with at least part of their soul. - if this is a death dueled character you wish to summon, I would say it should only be allowed if both the killer of said character and the character themselves agreed. - this way, there can be no conflict. If both players do not agree, thent he soul can be assumed to have ascended to whatever heaven and hell system Hollow has in place.

I LOVE the idea of necromancers being able to imbue weapons with souls, to create sentient weapons - moreso, again, if the soul is of an old character. Then the sword, or staff, or stick whatever, can have the influence that the real character would have had. An evil weapon, forged with an evil soul, would begin to corrupt its user - eventually, maybe, even trying to take control. Where a good character's soul could limit the use of the weapon. It'd be awesome to see a tyrant trying to chop someone's head off, but the blade refusing in an awesome struggle between man and weapon. Ooo, I want one.

I understand generic systems Hollow has in place to stop idiocy, and surely understand the need for these things. But sometimes we have to assume (and pray?) that the players will not abuse this and will actually let it grow into something that is fun. And as I stated earlier, with express permission from both parties involved in any death duel should stop any complaints. If the players no longer play, then they soul cannot be used. It'd also add some awesomeness to death duels, and make them used a bit more in proper reasons. Having a ressurection clause in the duel would be great. You can come back if a necromancer wants you to, but you are bound to whatever they decide. IE, Svil could be brought back if Jolie wanted him to destroy the Eldritch Cabal. And he could try, and in doing so any paths could be walked. He could succeed. He could turn on Jolie. He could be destroyed a second time. Who knows?! But having that clause in death duels would make them more exciting, I think.

Now, that's about all I have to say on necromancers. I hope I didn't ramble.

--Svilfon.

I guess I'll throw my opinion in here just for the hell of it (knowing full well that the likelihood of these rules changing is rather low). For those who were around "back in the day", they know that it was common place to see two rangers duking it out in Kelay Way for each other's souls, no reasoning for how or why they would be doing it, just sounded like good stakes. Also, when someone inevitably lost their soul, 99% of the time they walked about as if they were no worse for the wear. Pair this with the people who attempted to come back from the dead as ghosts, spirits, wraiths, etc and those who attempted to utilize incorporeal form to make themselves nearly invulnerable to attack and you can understand a large portion of the reasoning why the rules were changed to prevent soul magic. All of this being said, the fact remains that these events DID happen, the admin can change canon but you can't change history. Weapons existed which contained the souls of deceased, Liches walk the land, often involving major characters within Hollow's History, so to suddenly say that soul magic doesn't exist causes serious damage to the state of events which have already transpired. A bit of common sense injected into the current rules would likely solve most of the issues. Were I emperor for a day and could dictate the state of things, these are the rules I'd put forth regarding souls.

1. If a character dies in a DD they are dead permanently unless the victor of that duel agrees to some method of resurrection/reanimation.

2. Incorporeal characters are not allowed.

3. Creation of items which can absorb other player character's souls will be under admin approval.

4. Only priests, mages, and necromancers of sufficient skill can create items which can absorb souls.

5. Only necromancers can remove the souls of others directly without the use of an item; however, this is a lengthy process requiring much ritual and not something which can be done on a whim.

6. Any RP regarding ghosts, souls, or the dead which does not directly effect other players will be allowed without restriction. (the purpose of this game is fun, if your RP provides this and does not prevent the enjoyment of other's, there is no reason it should be rejected)

7. If a living creature has its soul removed (through agreed RP or duel stakes), it is essentially a zombie, relegated to mostly instinctual behaviour or control by the necromancer who removed its soul.

8. One can not transfer their soul from one body to another unless done so in the process of becoming a Lich.

9. Unless a divine force intervenes, becoming a Lich requires the player to undergo considerable RP to that end. Only mages and necromancers can become Liches. If a Mage becomes a Lich they will require the assistance of a skilled necromancer in creating the ritual. To become a Lich a player must kill (either willingly or through a DD) another player character of at least 6 months age as a sacrifice. To become a Lich a character must create an in-game item for their phylactery. The item will cost 100k and will be hidden in an actual room and findable through a search command. The room may be hidden (using push/pull/climb/etc commands), but may not be locked. If an admin divulges the location of a phylactery to any player, the location will be changed to a new area at no cost to the Lich player.

Anyway, there's my rant... for what it's worth.

Tiphareth 14:50, 7 June 2011 (UTC)