Talk:Player Vampire Discussion

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1. List of races that cannot be turned (Pixies, Draconians, Ogres, Trolls, etc.) --Vuryal 14:02, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
   1. ~ Perhaps they were left out due a general assumption that everyone knows these races could not be turned, but I think Dryad, Lycan, Undead and obviously Dragon should be on that list as well. I'm not entirely sure whether Minotaurs, Centaurs, Nagas, or Prekleks should be on the list; I've never seen one, but it could make an interesting character. ~ Keter 14:58, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
2. Regarding all current players being Grandfathered in to the new standards, maybe offering a one time registration period lasting a predetermined amount of time (2 weeks, a month, etc.), for player who wish to have the power to sire, would be a different solution. This would facilitate creating an actual list of such players, since the average player doesn't have access to exactly how old a character is or if they had the character before the Grandfather period. ~ Keter 15:42, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

No more vampire babies, or 'born' vampires? --Wren

• To be honest I disagree with every rule except five and eight. I may take one and two if the time-line was changed a little but everything else I am strongly against. So you're going to "grand-father in" all the current god-modders and other people who can't handle playing a vampire correctly, and that gets you where? Power should come from dueling like it does from any other player, from any other race and players who RP improperly as a vampire should be ignored or dealt with individually. Also I'm not a player who sticks with one character for years on end, and I can't even imagine doing that and I wouldn't just to be "respected" as a vampire. But by the way, you know it's bad when an undead shuns you. -cough- Anyway this is what I have to put up with as a vampire player because people tend to think if you're not Rheven, you're a waste. Still I would not play by these rules. Please do not enforce this as it would take away any fun I have of this game. (I don't like to force RP on myself just so I can be taken seriously.)--Aether 16:05, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree partly with Aether. I have been here around a year. Many people, vamps especially, that claim their character is powerful, will not duel with me, or they godmod in rp. I find it difficult to make a name for myself as more powerful or well known on hollow. People who have been here for 5,6 years had that opportunity in the past. If someone is claiming they are a powerful vamp, they should have to duel to back that up. I do think that the coven rules, etc, might make it difficult for some rprs, unless they know or can make their characters get along with those who are allowed to sire, for the express purpose of getting sired. Then, they would have to be a slave...it just adds alot of confusion. Eudocia

I too have problems with this, I may not play a vampire, but I have friends that do. Perhaps some limits should be put in place, but these seem a bit harsh to me, a good backstory, combined with being able to back it up in rp is what should be required. Sireing should perhaps be limted but be able to be given with admin approval for those whom meet the requirements of a good backstory and being able to rp it out right. As for gaining powers, quests don't make sense, it should litterally take a series of rps, ones that take a while of the vampire taking the time to learn these abilities, if someone is committed to their character they should take the time to put in the rps over weeks and months in order for them to grow in power. Now as for dueling, that is not always a fair tell, but it is a good indicator of wether they god mod or not, moving fast and strength come with being a vampier but that doesn't mean that they can't be hit, even by non vampires. Lastly, the thing that would trouble me the most is taking away the race option for new players, half the fun in this game is being able to come in, create a char and write up a good backstory to fit that char, how they act, what they're abilities are and such forth, you take away what makes for good chars if you can only be sired by existing players. *Tirla*

Another comment from Eudocia...I don't agree with ranking things by Pvp. People that have no life and are on here constantly will obviously win with that. Also, when I'm here, I'm here to rp, as I feel that is the main focus of this game. I, for one, am for admin approved siring. Any siring rps will need to be admin approved. I think that would take care of many issues. I have no problem reporting people not following these rules, haha, as it messes with my rp as well. -Eudocia

• Odette
  • While I don't agree with it all being PvP related, I don't think people should just make it all RP related, either. They have a point since it's all supposed to be equal. PvP and rping are equal in an ooc sense, because they both involve taking up your time. Quests giving powers seems fair enough, because they're at least doing something. Rping and gaining powers is on the same level, as long as people don't abuse it all the time, if it can be abused.
  • I still, personally, think that there should be mandatory rule, not just for vampires, but since a lot of players that are this race seem to do it, make it mandatory to duel if you start stuff, annoy someone icly, talk big, or claim you're better. If a duel does happen, what they've earned in quests and rp should be taken into consideration, in my opinion, meaning they could use those learned/gained skills.
  • I also think that if someone wants a vampire character that badly (starting out as one), then they can go send in an admin approval sheet and create the character then have the race changed soon after.
  • With born vampires, you have to have admin approval anyway. Being born a vampire, in my opinion, doesn't change a thing. It just means you were born. I think that if two vampires want to have a baby they should have some extensive rp going on and that the experience wouldn't be just like a regular pregnancy, nor should it be some walk in the park the entire time. I think having vampire babies should be something most people don't want to go through. Born vampires, kind of, in my opinion, should age, because they were born. Maybe they won't age as quickly or die from age, but they should be able to age in someway since they were born.
  • I'm not sure if a Naga or a Preklek should be allowed, because Preklek are from a different dimension, and Naga may not have dragon blood, but they are serpentine. I'd think it shouldn't be allowed for reptilian characters.
  • With the slave relationship, I think it should be fleshed out a little more. Slaves can revolt and get away from their master, or is it like that if Peron A sired Person B, Person B must follow and listen to what Person A tells him to do?
  • Also, if we do create a new hierarchy, how do we fit everyone in those lines? Does that mean that someone in a higher hierarcy, even if they lose a duel, can't lose because they're in that higher part, or that they just have more skills than the last person?

• Rheven
  • I don't know where PVP came in, but PVP is not going to be part of anything. C'mon now, Rheven has 15 HP due to the fact that I restarted him and didn't want to build him back up stat wise...that and I find PVP as entertaining as watching paint peel off the wall, its not my cup of tea or many others. It is in no way reflective of power earned through RP.
  • Covens are a good idea. They always have been, and I support that 100%. There is a goldmine worth of potential RP with vampire covens/families/clans/what have you.
  • I think siring should be somewhat limited, but it is not as big of an issue as it is being presented. For example, as Rheven, he has sired maybe 3 people, only one of which is currently in the game as the others have had their character killed/deleted/etc. How we can 'fairly' limit siring, I don't know yet.
  • I don't quite agree with the sire/sireling-master/slave deal. While it is true that most fledglings depend entirely on their sire in the beginning anyway, such a thing would be nearly unenforceable. Obviously, if someone was sired into a Coven, they would not be a slave, but part of the 'family'.
  • Wiping out these silly labels such as 'pure blood' is a good idea. I support that 100%. Born vampires should be allowed, but ONLY in certain circumstances(between powerful vampires and with powerful magic/divine intervention involved, for example).
  • I'm not sure I entirely approve of grandfathering all the current vampires in. That would solve nothing of the existing problem. Nevertheless, a fair solution must be made that will appease to as most people as possible(appeasing everyone is entirely impossible; sorry, but some people are just going to have to deal with changes).
  • As well, I hope this will be seen and put forth as more of an opportunity to progress RP in Hollow and improve it, not be seen nor treated as if it is a punishment for people wishing to play vampires. Most good RPers have done nothing to deserve this controversy.

-Freiya-

• I find PvP should not take a part in any of it, seeing as many do not stat at all, I only stat when I'm busy in RL or am not quite in the mood for active rp. Some people come here strictly to Rp, and should not be punished because they don't have 3k hp. And as for powers being gained through quests, that honestly doesn't make sense, you go here, do this, go there do that, go back here and say I'm done, and all of a sudden you can read minds. That doesn't make sense to me. My char being fairly new in hollow, while I myself have been around for several years as different chars, has been rp'd haveing certain powers already, and she is working towards gaining more, but she will not gain any more abilities till I've done some extensive Rp to gain those.

• Sireing should be somewhat limited, but the basic Vampire should be able to do it, considering that under the race guidlines it says that the normal vampire may sire, but such things as a Vampire Thrall can't, thats defined under the official Race description. Now on the note of actually limiting it, two players should rp it out, record the whole thing and send it to the admin, whereupon if it is approved, then the admin will change the effected player's race to a vampire and until then said player cannot rp as a vampire, much like it is up to an admin wether to approve a player bio page.

• Covens are a good Idea, as are clans and such forth. This brings forth a load of possible rp as Rheven said, and policy's of that coven should be left up to the leaders,run much like an official clan.

• Hierarchy could be established, but in no way should it mean that someone at a lower rank can't beat someone of a higher rank, and as such should only be used in conjunction with a coven, such as clans have leaders and owners, the and guilds have ranks.

• Taking the option of starting as a vampire off is a mistake, but could also be done in a fair manner, a person could start as a certain race and send a bio sheet into the admin, but this would make more work for said admin, to be considered, and if the admin approve then they'd be turned to a vampire, but as such they would have to play as a vampire come from said base race.

• Born Vampires should be allowed, but once again, and as it is now, should be strictly Admin approved. As for lables such as pureblood, I think as an ooc event it should be wiped away, but if a player decides that their char would like to use it as a smear against another, it should be allowed as that is an Ic attitude, but in no way should it mean, I'm a pureblood, you can't beat me, I in no way cadone godmodding.

• As for the relationship between the sire and the one sired, that should depend on a situation, for example, my char is falling in love with someone, and should she marry him, on their wedding night, should he be amendable to it she will sire him. In such a case, he would be an equal, though less powerful than she. But one might sire one our of friendship, while another would sire to cement control over another, it's all situational. In no terms does in mean one can't break the tie, but in some cases one might be a slave where in another one might be an equal.

• As my final note, I hope all veiws are considered equally before anything is done beyond Discussion

I have found this whole: "Vampire gets with and falls in love with non vampire", then "vampire sires said nonvampire", business irking. It's highly unbelievable that a food species would fall so deeply in love with it's predator. I mean, then, holy priests and stuff loving a murdering vampire? I'm not sure what can be done about that. Also, a newly sired vampire has no reason to suddenly become an uber vamp, knowing everything about it's race. -Eudocia

-Freiya- Well thats the thing, vampires are odd, they feed off something the body can replenish naturally, so they do not need to kill someone to feed. And there are a number of reasons to sire someone, to bring them to heel, to save them from death, love, all perfectly good reasons, and no neophyte vampire is going to know everything about being a vampire, I was simply refering to how the sire would treat the one sired.

• Odette
  • If some species do fall for their predator, why not? They can be friends with vampires, work with vampires, but they can't fall for one? Most species have feelings of some sort, whether they like, accept them, or act on them.
  • I'm not even sure if all vampires know everything about their race. If someone writes a book about them, I'm sure they could just read up on it and learn all there is to learn. If a newly sired vampire had great skills before becoming one, why shouldn't he keep those skills? It's not that hard to learn about a race. I think the biggest problem would be how he copes with it and how much strength he gets at the time it happens.
    • Now, frankly, if they practice every single day and work out and get to know hot their body works/hone their strengths and all, then new or not, they might have an advantage over someone who doesn't. But this goes back to me saying that if they act uber, they need to have the skills to show that they are in a duel.
    • I like the idea of having vampires a duel mandatory race IF they put themselves in that situation and they help to spark the flames between whoever. I think it'd stop the uberness if they knew that they'd have to stand up for themselves, or it'd just make them lose some of that bad mouthing edge.
  • I also don't think, if they go off and do quests, that anyone will get an ability that stops the rper from saying what can and can't happen with their character. Probably from a quest, people would gain a natural skill that someone could rp out within reason, something that anyone could do if they took the time to actually rp it out. I don't think anyone's saying that quest skills will make you better than someone in a duel, or that quest skills will give you a power that you have no control over. At least, I hope not. Also, we can't really talk that much about quests, because we don't even know how you're supposed to be able to get one done.
    • Though, I do like the idea of keeping a sort of unity between the two, that way both sides can be happy in their own way. People can rp, and those that can't find someone to rp with or don't enjoy doing it by themselves can do a quest.
  • About covens, would it be a clan and would it be mandatory to be in it if you were a vampire or would it be more like an official guild? And if vampires don't join it, are they all goign to be considered rebels, or are there going to be some that just didn't join in?

I think that, perhaps, we should take a different approach to this matter. Personally I see that the major problem is not so much with Vampires, but with all the other races. Vampires (along with some other races) seem strong and overpowered because other races are really underused, undefined, or underpowered. Many of these races change to Vampire because they often feel that it would be pointless to stay as Human, Elf, or Hobbit. They seem so weak in comparison. Why should it be like this? Each weaker race end up being unable to keep up just being what race they were born. I mean, in comparison, how many Humans, Trolls, Gnomes, or Hobbits do you see for each Lycans, Vampires, Dragons, and Avians? Or even the distribution of famous players with Centaurs, Dryads, Felines, Fermins, Giants, (true)Gnomes, Half-Elves, Minotaurs, Naga, Prekleks, and Trolls being completely empty. The majority of others having only one or two characters in them, of course aside from Dragons and Vampires*. but It is clearly not an even playing field. Every race is suppose to be balanced in the end, correct? Their strength are made up by their weakness. So why are some seen as weaker? It doesn't make any sense if they are meant to be balanced. I understand that the race list is meant to assist with this fact. Yet many of them are half-empty. Many of those races I have listed end up one sided. Why are Vampires be considered to be extremely intelligent, mystically powerful in magic, and unusually strong while a more balanced race like Pixie is has the same rating the first two areas yet considered pitifully weak? There are many examples of this throughout the races. Now I understand these things are suppose to be rough guidelines, but still it exhibits the mindset that most players end up thinking.

Fixing the other races does seem and is more labor intensive than simply regulating Vampires, but it is a core problem that will only keep popping up as people draw attention to the nature of the stronger races. Even with stronger enforcement as of recent it does, indeed, keep coming up. The issue goes somewhat deeper than just Vampires, even if they also need to be balanced out as well. As a community I think we should carefully go over every race--not just Vampires--and define them in a better manner and give people more incentive to play lesser RPed races. Not just in terms of power, but also history and importance to the overall story we weave of Hollow.

Now in regards to the suggested rules I have mixed feelings. One, five, seven, nine, and even ten I outright disagree. Mostly because they unfairly favor older players (even though I am one and I do see contribution to the community as one of the most important factors) and can force someone into a relationship they might be unlikely to enter into in the first place. Two, three, four, and six are slightly different in that I at least partially agree in some way. Four and six are good as options as part of their social structure in that it is something that should provide them benefit for assisting in the RP, but not set as something they should be harmed for not doing so. Two and three I think that yes, players that put more effort into their character should be rewarded. However this shouldn't be part of their character's age (which people often make up at random) rather the hard work many RPers put into them. Perhaps a good exchange between the power they gain and the power they had would be to lose the racial strengths and powers they had before being turned. In that so they would not be able to stack their strengths. I understand this is a major issue and the reason why race rules were created in the first place. I find it a good compromise if not one that might need a little work. Their inability to sire wouldn't make much sense, though. They personally experienced the act and some things (like eating and sleeping or a better example in this case reproduce) come naturally to creatures who need to do those things. The last one, number eight, I simply completely agree with at the moment. What is pure blood? Why should it matter if you are the first generation or twentieth? Aside from the amount of story you have made for your character that simply does not make sense.

-Cuki

(*In regards to Humans on the Famous Players page they seem to be the rare exception. These are from outstanding players that go out of their way to show the true might and beauty of Humans.)

• Odette
  • Vampires have strengths, but how many races have a weakness that's as bad as theirs? How many characters can say that one race's blood can kill them if dropped on their bodies in large amounts? Just because a person sees a character race as some super thing doesn't necessarily mean that's what they are. I think physical abilities and magical abilities are dependant on what their current race is, along with mental abilities. Not all vampires are going to be knowlegable of the entire world, unless they've lived for a long amount of time or were very knolegable in the first place.
  • Limiting who becomes a vampire isn't necessarily that bad. If they want to play the character that badly, they can surely think of something to write to get that position or go through the appropriate rp to get it.
  • Speaking of time, yea.. I know vampires can live for a long time and all, but there are some huge, out there ages for them and none of them have any time harmfulness, you know? Like, if you were alive for ages upon ages, seeing your friends die, seeing everyone age before you and all, you'd think it would mess you up in the mind. I don't think that a lot of them took time off, either, I think they've just lived for that entire amount of time. If this makes sense to you all, too!

Hi all, Tenebrae here.

I agree wholeheartedly with Keter on the limiting of races that can be sired (i.e., are vamps who feed on Dryads sap-suckers? Yeesh). That cuts down a goodly number of vamp-siring options, plus reduces potential idiot-magnets as well. Sadly, it also cuts down on rp-options for the more responsible players, but that's the price of having idiots allowed to run rampant in the game to begin with.

The real problem here is that the race attributes have been ill-defined/skewed/let run rampant and feral too long. Clean that up, and voila, creativity is funnelled into appropriate and sensible channels, in which it can blossom freely without being annoying/stupidly out of control for admin and players.

I honestly think that limiting vamps to application-only chars is the only way to make this work. ie, You need a/ a a player to sire you from among the already-approved vamps. b/ adequate rp to create your vamp, over and beyond "I wuz bit in the Kelay tav, hyuck hyuck". c/ a good reason for them existing at all. d/ an agreement, upon approval, to limit the sirings your char does to whatever is agreed reasonable (I like the no sirings for 3 or 6 months idea).

-- ALL of this is ooc, of course, but so are the rules we all have to follow. I have heard arguments of "Oh, just rp it, it's RP do what you want"-- but the rules of the game are all OOC, too, and are there to ensure the game runs smoothly -- and so would the applications be.

The players who like to "breed" thier vamps all over and play happy vamp families generally won't be bothered to write 1000 words on why they need a vamp so badly, or why thier vamp will be good RP.

Application-vamps provide a tad more control over a highly "communicable" race. Plus, it's a step forward as far as introducing the idea of erncouraging "responsible, well-thought out rp" goes. Don't like it? Make a sexy elf and fliss about in Kelay Tavern, popping out your happy fambly of multi-fathered elf-babies all you want.

Set rules need to be put in place about the vampire race --actually-- entails. Age-- 20,000? I don't think so. Don't need to consume blood? I don't think so. Want to play these things? Be a dragon.

This needs sorting out, in the worst way: What kills vamps? What hinders them? Which "vamp rules of existence" exist in Hollow, as opposed to Hollywood? If there's clear guidelines and less idiocy the bajillion things that can kill a vamp in this game might be reduced, making it a bit more fair for those who play vamps and are not utterly stupid about it.

I am just suggesting there be a few very clear and non-negotiable guidelines for the race. That way, we can be as creative with rp -- within those gudelines-- as we dang well like (the same way we are creative within the guidelines for the gameworld in general), but we will ALL know where we stand when facing --or playing-- a vampire.

As for existing vamps: let them die out with the current chars. I liked the idea of people needing to 'register' thier vamps with admin to keep the current ones alive (give folks a month?) -- which mght entail an ooc agreement to abide by some new and sensible rules set out for acceptable vampire behaviours/ abilities.

Beyond setting up a decent, do-able, sensible and concrete set of rules about this race's attributes, I think the RP of vamp society beyond application/adherance to race guidelines should be left entirely to the players. While I adore the idea of Covens, I think that's really a matter for the players to decide to RP or not, as it suits them.

No doubt I'll have more thoughts on this. Kudos for sensible discussion.

- Tene

Ok, let's take a look as to why this discussion is taking place in the first place.

People say vampire players are too uber or RP that they are too uber. This can be true for any number of races, as Cuki has stated however, vampires are the most often played and whose fault is that? It's no one's, however, these players are still going to be around either through the same character or in a different one and they will still god-mod, and they will still do whatever it is they do regardless or not if they are a vampire while doing it.

(And fyi, writing a 1000 word essay is not that hard and you'd be surprised at who would be approved... I've seen plenty of "admin approved" things that should just not have been so..)

I will say, yes, siring limits would be nice. Application-required vampires however, with as much as admins can actively handle now, is useless in all seriousness. You aren't going to do this for any other race so why are vampires the exception?

The biggest thing though I think is people need to stop being so butt-hurt when they see a new vampire. Yes I realize they are common but it's no one's fault that it's an enjoyable race to play. As well, most people are so prejudiced to this race and sometimes it's over an IC level to where they just DO it regardless of any skill/ talent the player may have as "It's another vampire, get the flogging stick because no matter what, I hate you and you are a bloodsucker/ leech." Seriously, that's not fun.

They're are players who are good at RP'ing and they're are players who are not so good, they're going to be here no matter what. Don't regulate this hoping to see any difference. Or regulate everything like this. I don't think it's fair to anyone to just do this to vampires.--Aether 04:20, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

::Eilyo::

• I completely agree with Aether on the if you're gonna make vampires register and whatnot, every race should have to. Being as fair as possible is really the best thing to do.

• With the grandfather clause, I don't think that every vampire around -now- should be grandfathered in, however, vampires that have been around for 1-2+ years should be.

• Personally, I think a lot of the wiki needs to be redone and the race rules/descriptions need to be rewritten on a lot of races. Like with vampires, a lot of it is confusing and contradictory. It will say one thing in the race description and then you look somewhere else on the wiki and it says something different, or something that should be in the description. It just needs to be made completely clear what's going on, ya know?

• Covens are a good idea for those vampires that would want to join one, and for the most part, I think majority will want to join one. There's exceptions in every race though.

• I think limiting siring to where you need to be around for some time to do it is a good, no, great idea. Keeps the nooby noob from coming in, making a vamp, siring someone, and then having their char offed so they can become an uber other character of doom that will also be replaced within a couple weeks.

• Making vampires, and while we're at it since they're in the same boat in a way, lycans a race you have to 'apply' for and can't just pick from the start is also a pretty good idea; as long as lycans are in that boat too. You get -turned- into vampires and lycans, so it makes sense, unless you have a good enough reason to convince an admin to change your race. Start out as the race your character started out as, send in a request to the admin, and wait and see if your reasoning is approved and then bam, you're a vampire or lycan.

• With 'rule' 2, I like that idea. Most things start out weak when they are something new, eh? Yes, like Odette, if they were powerful to begin with they be a little stronger, but they will still be a little messed up for awhile. Won't be as powerful as normal, but then, with time and getting used to their new race, they will have all their old strength plus the vampire gifted strength on top of it. Same thing can be said of lycans.

• Vampires and their sires usually have a connection, maybe a psychic one, if it's not a slave-owner type of relationship. There's always some sort of connection, ya know? The type really depends on the situation the rp entails. And yes, siring should be admin approved.

• I don't remember who said it as this point, but removing the term 'pure-blood' on an ooc basis is a good idea. Icly, however, some characters simply have a pompous attitude and will use it in a way to make themselves better than everyone else, even if it's only in their head. Think Harry Potter and the term Mudblood, used to put people down. Pure-blood in this sense for vampires, can be used to be themselves up, eh?

• Hierarchy on the race as a whole? No. Hierarchy within a coven, if those are set up? Yes. That's what I have to say on that.

• Quests AND rp used to increase strength and skill is a wonderful idea. A little bit of both is always a good idea. Personally I would do more rping than actual quests, but sometimes the right people simply aren't around and in comes the quests. I'm sure this is true of a lot of people. So yeah, not just one or the other to help increase, but bits of both.

• Like others have said, vampires are just a popular race. Vampires, elves, pixies, lycans, humans, and other various 'pretty' races will always be more popular on the whole. That's just all there is to it. I think if people were allowed more than one character we would see a lot more of the less played races. Old and/or good rpers, who don't exactly want to get rid of their character due to all the work put in, will take their creative abilities on this new character and possibly make the race more popular. If new/newer people see this under-played race being played, and in an intelligent fashion more people may start playing this other race. (I personally feel having an alt should become like a premium service. You pay a certain amount to have the character a certain amount of time, like a house or bio, and to keep it, keep paying, ya know? Basically like, you get one free character and then if you want -one- more, you have to pay for it. People pay to play EQ and WoW and people are already paying for things on here, so, yeah. I know people will -gladly- pay to have an alt.) Vampires are just one the most glorified fantasy races in the Hollywood world, so of course a lot of people are going to play a vampire. Sometimes I regret picking vampire for Eilyo, but that was four years ago and I was a silly little noob who didn't even have a background story for the character yet. Over time though I've come to like that I picked Eilyo; it's lead to a lot of internal conflict rp. But I picked vampire in the first place because it was a race I was more comfortable with, ya know? It was either that or elf. See my point? People like to, in general, stick with what is comfortable to them. We simply need to make the other races a little more comfortable.

I'm not sure what else to put here at the moment, so yeah. There ya go. - Eilyo 15:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

-Freiya-

The biggest Issue thats really brought this about is the simple use of vampires being naturally stronger and faster as a way to god mod and play an indestructable Char, and thats always bad rp. If more guidelines were put into place, more definitions. For example, Age, this is a common one, we see it go all over the place. From such a char as Rheven, a reverant, only at three hundred, to someone else claiming to be several thousand and only being a regular vampire. I myself have claimed my char to be about 700 hundred years old. I created this char with a back story in mind and a set of abilities that would be somewhat appropriate for that amount of time, but once I saw how old Rheven was I started to think that I maybe should lower it. Abilities is the key here, in all the legends there's numerous abilities associated with a vampire. Strength and speed, psychic abilities, not having to sleep, being able to disappear and reappear, bespelling people. I think the range of vampire abilities should be spread around in classes, set up a sort of hiearchy such as start off with the neophyte, or baby freshly sired vampire. Then theres the regular vampire. Then a third tier master, a second tier master, and a first tier master, and above all them is a Reverant. Master status is when a vampire has acheived enough power and is able to resist the link between his/own maker. With each level you describe how fast and how strong they can be, it'll still vary from person to person. And set how many abilities they can have, such as telepathy, and about how old they should be at this point. The age is just a general guideline cause there is an exception to every rule. I think to be a third tier master and above you should have to have admin permission, and only a master can sire. This would solve a lot of problems. I personally beleive that the vampire option shouldn't be removed from the start up list, but more guidelines should be put into place. Also before I forget, there are also rogues, vampires whom have no master any longer cause their's we're killed in some manner or another, a vampire will always have a maker, and have a tie to them, but sometimes those masters will be gone.

Rheven is not really a normal Revenant, Freiya. He was turned to one by a deal with an Ascendi (Vakarash, I believe?). So, he could easily be only 300. -Eudocia

Oh, and I don't think you should -have- to duel for any race. Kthanks. Eilyo 04:55, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

• Odette
  • I think they should have to deal with the consequences, in one way or another; duel or rp wise. If a vampire character starts some mess, they should be there for what happens and deal with it all the way through. That's just a fair rp thing, especially if they continually go on and on about something.
    • Basically, if a vampire wants to talk real tough, they should have to back it up, no matter what.
  • I don't think that a hierarchy shouldbe on what skills you have, because some people can have skills and not be very adept with them, while some can have them and be very adept. Also, just because someone has a skill, doesn't mean that they can use it well or at all on someone, depnding on how people rp their characters. I almost think a hierarchy should be based more on social standings rather than just on how powerful someone is.
  • I almost think there should be an age limit on vampires, or at least a breakdown of how they stay mentally afterwards, or at least a decaying process of some sort, or an aging process. Something that keeps them a little less awesome.
  • Covens, I think, should be treated the way guilds are, except without the pay to get in. Will there be any rp benefits for being in one. I'm going to guess tha an unlimited number of people can get in, and would they be selective or would they just let everyone join in?

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Tenebrae:

I do not at all see what either PVP or duelling have to do with this particular discussion. Perhaps those need thier own unique soapboxes; I don't think this is the appropriate one for that, though.

Aether made a lot of sense, about the applications. While I still like the idea, we -are- in Hollow-- so yah. Maybe that won't work. Stopping the butthurt sounds like a better idea. What about discouraging the daily vamp-bash on ooc?

So, I stick with what I said about reasonable, clear, non-negotiable, sensible spelled-out-in-black-and-white (and not tweakable by players on the dang Wiki) rules on vamp behaviour-- and hey, maybe even a little admin backup for that, on a regular basis?

Issues are:

-- Age limit. How long ago were the first vamps made? There's your upper limit right there. Aether's right-- nobody can stop pwnalls being pwnalls, if there's room to do so. We can only hope the snickering and shunning from thier peers sinks in, eventually.

-- Siring limit : How about a 6-month no-siring period? How about NO siring except for maybe a couple of approved 'senior sires'? Like the way Craughmoyle has a King and Queen? But then -- who are they? (oh gods, let's not flog the duelling horse again, is there no other method possible? Like maybe-- approval based on track record in leadership of RP, so we can sure the leaders will promote and stimulate rp for the race as a whole and not just make their darned selves and thier buddies more uber? Maybe a set period, after which they are up for challeges, so the rp hasn't got that ridiculous turnaround that constant warring causes?)

-- I still say Covens, etc, need to be player choices, entirely. Over-regulation is as bleh as under-regulation.

Off topic: I dearly, dearly hope this process is applied to ALL other races. :)

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• Odette
  • It doesn't seem like it'd be off topic to make more discussions like this for the rest of the races. How are we supposed to compare vampires and make them better, as a whole, throughout Hollow, if we don't get an idea of what the other ones are supposed to be like?
  • I do agree that the weekly vampire bashings over the ooc are a little bleh. It gets real tiring to have to try and defend your character choice ten times over.
  • The age limit, on the page, you can see when the first vampires were made, which isn't an exact time line. But, if you follow afterwards, there are some years: 300, 700, and then 1000. So, it could be said that the oldest vampire could only be around 2000 years old, after that it seems to go into a regular Hollow time format. But, honestly, there's no real time format to go by to say how old they can be by that.
  • For most of these rules, if they get approved for vampires, they should get approved for lycans. Lycans go through about the same process as vampiers, they can change people to lycans, they get more powerful, they get older, etc.

So, here's a question

Hi, most of the senior players here know me, I've been playing Fil since roughly the beginning of 02. On and off that is. Recent RP put him in a hole for two years while he recuperated from something Doci's charry did to him. I just brought him back. Would this put Fil back in Noob status, or what? Because while he was in that hole he was meditating, you know, finding his bloody center and whatnot. should he be rpd as mentally stronger or weaker now? Any pointers might be nice.